Priests talking about celibacy

Thomas Doyle interviewed by Frontline (05 Sept 2013)

Q: You’ve talked about the illusion of celibacy. What do you mean exactly by that?

Thomas_P_Doyle2A: Many, many priests are involved in long-term relationships; many are involved in a series of short-term relationships; many have had occasional sexual relationships with men or women. If you’re in the world, as I was for many, many years, I saw it. I saw it around me. So I think it is illusory, and I think what’s mainly illusory about it is that it somehow is necessary to have mandatory celibacy to have an effective priesthood, and I think that’s where the illusion becomes total, because the priesthood, as a form of ministry and sharing the life of Christ, would probably be immensely more effective if married men were allowed and if priests were not mandated to be celibate.   (source)

Q: What was the greatest impulse that prompted you to want to be a priest?

A:

I received my early Catholic training from Ursuline Sisters at Holy Cross Grade School attached to my parish church in Euclid, Ohio.  Here are the early portions of the Baltimore Catechism that provided my Socratic orientation toward Jesus and the salvation that he offered me.  This was a typical catechism in the 1950s that never mentioned that Jesus was born as a Jew; he lived as a Jew; he died as a Jew.  Here are the Socratic undergarments that Jew wore hidden under his Jewish garments:

5 Q. How is the soul like to God?

The soul is like God because it is a spirit that will never die, and has understanding and free will.

6 Q. Why did God make you?

God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him forever in the next.

7 Q. Of which must we take more care, our soul or our body?

We must take more care of our soul than of our body.

8 Q. Why must we take more care of our soul than of our body?

We must take more care of our soul than of our body, because in losing our soul we lose God and everlasting happiness.

9 Q. What must we do to save our souls?

To save our souls we must worship God by faith, hope, and charity; that is, we must believe in Him, hope in Him, and love Him with all our heart.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Within this religious setting, “saving my soul [from hellfire]” was my prime objective.  Hence, I developed the pattern of confessing my sins to a priest every Saturday and receiving Communion every Sunday.  This gave me the assurance that I was always in the “state of grace”–that, in turn, insured me that I would save my soul.

But there was even a better way.  The good Sisters told us that the vocation of being a priest was the best way to insure that I would save my soul.  I could expect to live for 84 years, and then I would be forever happy with God in Heaven after that for thousands of years.

Hence, it seemed clear to me that the good Sisters were right.  It was a small investment to live for God entirely now with the expectation that I would spend an eternity with God thereafter.  Was this idealism?  Yes.  Was this pragmatism?  Yes.

So I joined a religious order right out of high school.  And I kept myself open to the desirous goal of being a priest.  It was not that hearing confessions and saying Mass were inherently attractive for me.  They were not.  I was inherently attracted to physics and chemistry.  Yet, being an idealist and being practical at the same time allowed me to entertain the goal of being a priest.

After ten years in the order, I had a magical experiece with a 22-year-old woman during the week when I was on an ocean liner headed for beginning my graduate studies in theology in Fribourg, Switzerland.  Her name was Carlie.  She was a Christian Scientist.  Her vision of life was shaped by Mary Baker Eddy.

I found her fascinating.  Our first conversation lasted from 8 to midnight.  Our topic was life and holiness according to Mary Baker Eddy.  At midnight, I asked Carlie if she would want to continue our conversation the following night.  “Yes!  I’d like that very much.”

So we had four-hour conversations four nights in a row.  At the end of each conversation, I would spend another hour or two writing down everything that I could remember in my journal.  At the end, I felt very intimately connected to Carlie.  It was exciting to talk so intimately every night about her search for God and holiness.  I was in love, and I knew it.

After that encounter, I decided that it did not make sense to live a celibate life.   I wanted to live with someone like Carlie.  If I had to settle for a minor place in Heaven because of this choice, let it be!

I had never met a woman so intelligent, so resourceful, so delightful.  Where had I been all those years?  I just had never met a woman that was my equal.  She made all the difference!

When I read the Baltimore Catechism today, I immediately realize how strangely unbiblical the underlined segments are.  In point of fact, none of the Gospel stories presents Jesus as teaching his disciples that their bodies will only last a short time–one hundred years tops–but that their spiritual souls would last for an eternity. Nor does Jesus ever say to anyone, “Care for your precious soul; it’s worth much more than your body.”  Moreover, Jesus never understands his teaching mission to be about “saving souls.”[i]   Nor does the entire New Testament tell us that our everlasting happiness consists in shedding our mortal bodies at the time of our death such that our souls might rise up into Heaven in order to live with God and the Angels and Saints forever and ever.

Did I make the better choice by electing to pursue women!  You bet I did.  And now that I no longer believe that I have an immortal soul, I am triply sure that I made the better choice.

I think, from time to time, about those other guys, friends of mind, who stayed and contined to live the perfect life.   Was it because they had never met their “Carlie.”  I would think so.  This is why the RCC has such a small number of men coming forward to be priests.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[i] There are a few places where some English translations of the Greek speak about “losing your soul.”  Mark 8:36 comes to mind.  Jesus says, “What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and to lose his own soul [καὶ ζημιωθῆναι τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ]?”  This comes in the context of Jesus talking about the cost of following him. The way of Jesus can be a dangerous undertaking—you could get crucified (Mk 8:34).  If you don’t follow him, on the other hand, you could get filthy rich (“gain the whole world”) but, alas, you would at the same time “lose your soul” in the process.  In Socratic circles, it was common to hear Socrates urging his disciples “to save their souls” and “to give preference to protecting their souls.”  Such admonitions within Socratic circles served to affirm the importance of living an examined life  and freeing oneself from the false opinions of the multitudes.

The Baltimore Catechism talks about “saving one’s soul” in the sense of “saving one’s soul from eternal hellfire.”  When carefully examined, the Baltimore Catechism uses its metaphors to convey an idiosyncratic meaning that is far removed from what one finds in the Socratic dialogues and in Mark 8:36.  Moreover, the Socratic use of these metaphors provides no help when it comes time to interpret Mark 8:36.

Think of the metaphor, “Be wise as serpents” (Matt 10:16).  Since we live in a society which does not associate “serpents” with “wisdom,” we are at a loss for what this might mean.  Does the wisdom of snakes lie in their powers to blend in with their environment but, when cornered, they strike like lightning?  Does their wisdom lie in their powers to remain vigilant even though they eat sparingly?  Does their wisdom lie in their ability to regain their youth by sloughing off their skins?  Socrates and the Baltimore Catechism are of no use in helping us decide.  The snake in the Chinese Zodiac symbolizes “the most mysterious and also the wisest [personality]. They don’t allow others to know about them that much and they usually keep things to themselves.”  Thus, Chinese Christians might be prone to think they have a ready-made interpretation of Mark 8:36; yet, in their wisdom, they might not want to imagine that Jesus used a metaphor when communicating with Jews that was imported from China.  The same caution applies to American Christians who would be tempted to interpret “losing your soul” based on their reading of the Socratic-inspired Baltimore Catechism.

More  Resources:

Celibacy as the MAIN REASON for the lack of vocations
Priests talking about celibacy
The Tradition of Abusive Dishonesty
The Trouble with Celibacy in Africa
When a Priest Falls in Love
Total Page Visits: 1139 - Today Page Visits: 1

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.